Planned Parenthood is Not Evil and You Are Not Saving Anyone.

Mr. Matthew Derosia has issues. He’s been committed nine times since 2004, which amounts to more than twice a year. So, Red, why are we talking about some guy you’ve never heard of you ask? Because last Thursday, Matthew Derosia took his mother’s boyfriend’s SUV and rammed it into the Planned Parenthood clinic in St. Paul Minnesota.

Fortunately, no one was injured, because Matthew decided to destroy private property at 7:42am before business hours. Damage appears to be minimal, and the clinic was not closed down.

Matthew’s statement is particularly disturbing, stating that Jesus told him to “stop the murders.” One has to wonder…what would’ve happened had he actually committed his crime when there were people at the clinic? If he had run down a pedestrian or actually harmed someone inside the clinic? Why is it okay then? Why do living, breathing people take precedence over potential people?

Enough. Planned Parenthood is not evil. In fact, I’m fairly sure that most people don’t even know what Planned Parenthood does beyond abortions. How about a few facts from a nurse who actually worked for PP?

  1. Abortions account for precisely 3% of Planned Parenthood’s business. The vast majority of their business comes from office visits and contraceptives.
  2. They also provide assistance for low/no cost mammograms for low income women, pediatric services for the children of low income parents, pre-natal services for women who decide to have their babies, annual pap smears, sterilization services for men and women, counseling for teens, and, of course, contraceptives.
  3. They contribute more to their local communities than nearly any other medical non profit organization.
  4. They provide MUCH needed sex education to teens and schools. I was an educator for PP for a year…some of the things that are accepted by teens as fact are plain scary.

Planned Parenthood is not the enemy. The people who work there are, in my experience, some of the most empathetic, community spirited people I have ever met. They are dedicated to the cause of women’s health, and the truly believe in what they’re doing. It’s sad that the people who work so hard to put them out of business aren’t even aware of half of the services provided in those clinics, or that the people who are helped are usually low income with nowhere else to go.

Additionally, many anti-choice women make use of Planned Parenthood’s services. Not for education or contraceptives, sadly, but for the very thing they picket and protest against: abortion. In the spring of 2000, Joyce Arthur collected anecdotes from doctors, nurses and health workers at PP as well as pro-life women about women who obtain abortions even though they protest at clinics and identify as pro-life. It’s eye opening.

Abortion is an incredibly polarizing subject. What people forget when they argue that subject is that it’s also a very difficult, painful choice for the women who make it. It doesn’t need to be turned into a shameful, guilt ridden one as well because someone doesn’t approve. The people at PP are doing a difficult job providing services to men, women and children who need them. They don’t need “saving,” and their patients deserve dignity and understanding. They’re not a cause, they’re people. Actions like those of Matthew Derosia just further remove the realization of that fact.

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23 responses to “Planned Parenthood is Not Evil and You Are Not Saving Anyone.

  1. “Abortions account for precisely 3% of Planned Parenthood’s business. The vast majority of their business comes from office visits and contraceptives.”

    Oh the mis-information from Planned Parenthood…

    FACT: Planned Parenthood received about 35%* of the service income from abortions. If they were like any other business, they would call this 35% of their business not 3%. When you consider every condom you give you a unique service then the 3% number is going to be a distortion.

    FACT: Planned Parenthood is the nation’s largest abortion provider. They did 289,750 according to their 2007 annual report.

    http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/AR_2007_vFinal.pdf

    * Calculation: 289,750 abortions at an average rate of $450 each = 130.4 Million dollars in revenue / total “health care income” of $356.9

  2. leftcoastlibrul

    Hi, Dennis. Thanks for the comment.

    Actually, if you look at page four of the citation you posted, it clearly breaks down the services by Planned Parenthood and shows it as three percent of the services performed:

    Contraception: 38%
    STD Testing & Treatment: 29%
    Cancer Screening & Prevention: 19%
    Other Women’s Health Services: 10%
    Abortion Services: 3%
    Other Services: 1%

    You should read your own citation before posting it.

    Planned Parenthood may well be the nation’s largest abortion provider; that does not automatically follow that that’s the majority of Planned Parenthood’s business. Not to mention: Not all women are charged for abortion services. Perhaps you were unaware of it, but women who are unable to pay for abortion services are helped, usually with grant money donated to the Foundation or loans from the Foundation.

    Additionally, it is not revenue. Planned Parenthood is a non profit agency.

  3. 1. In terms of money received for their service, abortion is 35% of their business.

    2. They choose to break from how every other service provider counts their services. Instead of by income, they count by individual services provided. It is just a non-standard way of doing things.

    3. “You should read your own citation before posting it.” I have. I don’t doubt you that Planned Parenthood says abortion is 3% of their services. When Planned Parenthood performs an abortion, they also perform many services with it such as testing, screening, putting the woman on birth control, ultrasound, counseling, etc so 1 abortion client will get 7 services with only of those services being the actual abortion. In effect it greatly dilutes their abortion services as a percentage of their services.

    4. “Planned Parenthood may well be the nation’s largest abortion provider”
    That is a fact not a “may well be”.

    5. “Not all women are charged for abortion services”
    The women may not always pay but someone does. Often a foundation or taxpayers.

    6. “Additionally, it is not revenue. Planned Parenthood is a non profit agency.”

    Revenue is still an appropriator term even in non-profit accounting. While a non-profit can not distribute net income, they can retain it for use in future years.

    7. It all comes down to how you look at it. Yes Planned Parenthood gives out condoms, etc to thousands so that is their leading service in terms of people but their cash cow is abortion.

  4. What do you think about this:

  5. leftcoastlibrul

    1. So, you think that the money received trumps the actual services performed?

    2. No. I’ve been in healthcare for over 20 years. Every health care provider breaks down their services in such a way as to show what they did and how often. On the other hand, it isn’t the only way to analyze services; it’s one of many reports run. It isn’t the only breakdown that PPFA does, either.

    3. Women aren’t given birth control after an abortion unless they want one. It’s certainly suggested; if you don’t want to get pregnant again but are having sex, a method’s a good idea. Of course, that may just be my silly idealism talking.

    4. Way to totally ignore the bit that gives that statement context. Nice cherry picking.

    5. No, very often if the woman does not qualify for a foundation grant, the cost of the abortion is absorbed. *shrug* There’s no such thing as “bad debt” at PP. Incidentally, not all abortions cost the amount you posted. Medicaid pays anywhere from $185-about 385, depending on whether the patient has a medication or surgical AB. Those are 2008 numbers based on the California fee schedule; likely the highest amount anywhere in the country.

    6. Very well.

    7. No. Their “cash cow” is contraception. Aside from oral contraceptives, the new IUC, Mirena, is now approved by state medicaids. The total amount paid is over $600 (again, California pricing for 2008), and it’s doing a very brisk business. But oral contraceptives are the main source of income, and one prescription of Ortho Evra can pay more than an abortion (12 month prescription on a sliding scale up to $360).

  6. leftcoastlibrul

    Oh, the “sting” thing where right to life groups were more concerned with proving how Planned Parenthood nurses break the law by not asking the guy’s age or not wanting to know it, and the PP nurses who were more concerned with making sure their patients are okay? Yeah, I’ve seen it. I’ve also seen women who pretend to be someone other than who they are in order to steal PP patient lists and distribute them among area pro-life groups with intent to publish them. Is that okay? After all, it’s breaking the law….

  7. “I’ve also seen women who pretend to be someone other than who they are in order to steal PP patient lists and distribute them among area pro-life groups with intent to publish them. Is that okay?”
    Of course not, that’s illegal. I’ve never heard of a pro-life group ever doing that. Maybe some wacko individual.

    The video I shared with you was 100% legal though.

    “Yeah, I’ve seen it. ”
    Is that your only response? You aren’t bothered by what you saw at all?

    Do you support stat. rape and sexual abuse laws?

    “So, you think that the money received trumps the actual services performed?”
    They are both ways to count actual services performed so your question is a a logical fallacy.

    4. “Nice cherry picking. ” You wrote it. If i’ve taken your statement out of context then explain how so.

    “Incidentally, not all abortions cost the amount you posted. ”
    Sure, they range above and below my estimate but my estimate is based on what PP employees have told me.

    Often insurance is billed at far higher rates up to over $1,000 in some circumstances so I have been told.

    “Those are 2008 numbers based on the California fee schedule; likely the highest amount anywhere in the country.”

    I doubt they are the highest. Call up a few PP’s…they will tell you that they commonly cost $400-500.

    “Their “cash cow” is contraception.”
    Their man cash cow is the government. The only reason why oral contraceptive make much money is because the government subsidizes their purchases.

    That said, can you show me any hard evidence that they bring in more from contraceptive than abortion?

  8. No Planned Babykilling Parenthood is evil.
    At least Matthew Derosia tried to save unborn babies from being murdered and how do we know that our LORD God didn’t tell him to do what he did? He certainly told others to do much more dramatic things as recorded in the Holy Bible and we know that our LORD God is unchanging. I have a lot of respect for Matthew Derosia and I pray he is delivered from this corrupt government that protects these babykilling abortionists that murders helpless children.
    SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins. I believe you died on the cross to take away my sins and to take me to heaven. Jesus, I ask you now to come into my heart and take away my sins and give me eternal life. http://www.armyofgod.com

  9. leftcoastlibrul

    Dennis: You took my comment out of context by leaving off the second half, in which I stated that while your number may well be correct, it is not the primary procedure performed at PP, merely one of the higher paying procedures.

    I don’t need to call PP to ask what their abortions cost: I worked there as an educator for over a year. I’m well aware of their pricing. That’s why I quoted what I did. As for what insurance companies are billed: They are billed the amount allowed by the RBRVS fee schedule.

    Are you really requesting a citation after telling me what amounts to “this is what I heard from someone who said this sometime” on an anonymous blog? Okay. The citation is the one you posted; you can also look on any state Medicaid for the reimbursement for that particular procedure. What is charged is not necessarily what is allowed. This is a common mistake made by people who don’t read EOB’s for a living. But you will find that no PP quotes a hard price, because their fees are based on a sliding scale depending on the woman’s income. See here for proof of that.

    Rev. Spitz: Thank you for your comment. I understand your misplaced support for Matthew, but he’s a confused young man who has serious mental issues. He has been committed nine times. He’s just as likely to have heard the voice of Elvis as the voice of Jesus. He’s very lucky he didn’t hurt anyone.

    Incidentally, according to scripture, God has no problems whatsoever with abortion; he exhorted the Israelites to “rip up the women great with child” of their enemies. That’s hardly the words of a God who wants every baby to be born.

  10. “Dennis: You took my comment out of context by leaving off the second half, in which I stated that while your number may well be correct, it is not the primary procedure performed at PP, merely one of the higher paying procedures.”

    I agree that it is not the most common procedure performed. I was just getting the notion that it seemed like you weren’t willing to accept my statement or oppose it and I though your lack of directness on responding to my point was notable.

    Also, Boeing makes Airplanes, right. I used to work for them. They make hundreds of planes every year yet they sell tens of thousands of spare parts (if not more). Using Planned Parenthood’s logic, they are not in the business of making planes but of making spare parts. So you would call Boeing a spare parts company right?

    “But you will find that no PP quotes a hard price, because their fees are based on a sliding scale depending on the woman’s income.”

    That may have been true for the PP you worked for but each PP is independently operated by its state group, etc. I know for a fact that some places will give hard price quotes…even to girls who have no money. Often it is around $400 cash for a 9 week abortion.

    Matthew is a troubled man and I think his actions say more about his mental state than anything else. I hope the authorities are able to get help for him as he is a danger to himself and others.

    “The citation is the one you posted; you can also look on any state Medicaid for the reimbursement for that particular procedure.”
    Often abortions are paid for in cash. How is knowing what Medicaid does help me answer this question?

    “Incidentally, according to scripture, God has no problems whatsoever with abortion”

    That is not true. Please cite what passage you are talking about. I know of a passage that talks about that happening but it was an account of what happened…not what God desires.

    Here is what the Bible says about the unborn: http://fbbc.com/messages/abortion.htm

    The Bible uses the same language to describe both unborn and born children.

    The Greek word used (brephos) is actually interchangeable for born or unborn child. Interesting that there isn’t a distinction. Maybe there isn’t in God’s eyes…

  11. leftcoastlibrul

    “Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” (Hosea 13:16)

    God doesn’t have any issue with killing women and children so long as they’re enemies of his chosen people. Hell, he’s even happy to kill kids just because they made fun of an old man’s beard (Elijah). Or tell parents they should be happy to “dash their children’s heads against the rocks.”

    The god of the Bible has the morals of a spiteful, murderous spoiled child who isn’t getting his way, and Christians who quote the Bible insisting that “every life is precious” do so while ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

  12. I guess that means that pro-life people are pro-life for reasons other than God saying that life is valuable.

    I certainly don’t use statements in the Bible as my defense of human life at any stage.

    “Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” (Hosea 13:16)
    By the way, that is just a declarative statements by Hosea about what is happening. I don’t see how that is what God desires. It also talks of the women being ripped up. It has nothing specifically to do with the unborn. Enlighten me.

    So would you say that you would agree with the statement that “every life is not precious”?

    Also, I noticed you failed to answer…

    So you would call Boeing a spare parts company right?

    Often abortions are paid for in cash. How is knowing what Medicaid does help me answer this question?

  13. “Their women with child shall be ripped up.” Which part of that is not specifically to do with the unborn?

    I would say that as humans over our long history and currently, we go out of our way to prove that all life is not precious. That we decide whose life is and is not important.

    Why do people always insist on comparing the human body to a machine? It’s offensive. Just because labs are performed prior to an abortion does not mean they are not performed during other procedures. That’s what is involved in STD testing and treatment, which, as I said earlier, comprises the majority of the procedures performed by PP.

    I stated that PP charges on a sliding fee schedule based on a woman’s income. THAT covers the abortions that are paid for in cash.

    I have answered all your questions. If you’ve failed to understand my answers, I would suggest that the communications issue may be in your haste to pick apart my posts instead of reading for comprehension.

  14. ““Their women with child shall be ripped up.” Which part of that is not specifically to do with the unborn? ”
    It is saying that pregnant woman were ripped up and the logical inference that the unborn died as well. It is saying nothing about abortion. Do you think that a pregnant woman dying is the same thing as an abortion? I guess abortions aren’t that healthy for women after all.

    “I would say that as humans over our long history and currently, we go out of our way to prove that all life is not precious. ”
    And you think this is a good thing? I want to be different and support human equality where all life is valued.

    “That we decide whose life is and is not important. ”
    And you support this concept?

    “Why do people always insist on comparing the human body to a machine? ”
    I don’t know who “people” are. That is a lazy term. How did I compare a human body to a machine? If you think I did, you are completely mistaken.

    “I stated that PP charges on a sliding fee schedule based on a woman’s income. THAT covers the abortions that are paid for in cash.”
    And you know this to be the case at all Planned Parenthood or just the single independent region that you worked at? I know they charge different prices for surgical vs. medical and based on the age of the human.

    “If you’ve failed to understand my answers, I would suggest that the communications issue may be in your haste to pick apart my posts instead of reading for comprehension.”
    No worries, I feel I have good comprehension of your points as I am able to address each one.

    I have found our conversation very interesting and will be sharing it with a few of my friends so that they can glean wisdom from our exchange and understand two perspectives on this issue.

  15. leftcoastlibrul

    No, it was god saying (through his prophet) what was going to happen in the coming battle. The god of the OT (which comes directly from the Torah) was originally the war god of a nomadic tribe. It’s one of the reasons it’s so difficult to reconcile the god of the OT and the god of the NT. Re-read the book of Hosea. God was speaking to Hosea (Hoshaya) (Ch 1: The word of the lord came unto Hosea, son of Beeri, etc.) and essentially saying to him “Samaria’s pissing me off, they don’t worship me. Go kill ’em all, including the women and children, and kill the pregnant women in this really brutal manner just to show ’em who’s boss.” You can find the book here. It’s when god got pissed off and decided it was time for the Israelis to be slaves because life was just too good and they weren’t paying enough attention to him. Nice, huh?

    And you think this is a good thing? I want to be different and support human equality where all life is valued.

    That, of course, is a personal choice which I totally support. Just bear a few things in mind.

    1. Childbirth is a life threatening procedure.
    2. The United States has one of the highest mortality rate for women in labor and the second highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world, an absolutely shameful record (citations here and here). Is it fair to ask a woman to give her life because you don’t like the idea of abortion? Because that is what you are asking her to risk. If so, how does that coincide with your belief that every life is as important as every other?
    3. You have made your choice and it is an admirable one. You cannot force everyone else to choose YOUR option. There are no more slaves. Not even women.

    And you support this concept?

    To an extent. I recognize that I am not able to do more than influence others’ choices, and that natural selection demands that we choose (even unconsciously) which lives have more significance. It would be nice if everyone’s life had the same importance, but that isn’t true. You yourself have demonstrated that a woman’s life is inferior to the potential life she’s carrying.

    I don’t know who “people” are. That is a lazy term. How did I compare a human body to a machine? If you think I did, you are completely mistaken.

    It’s a generalization, correct. Don’t confuse lazy with non-specific. Many people insist in physicians’ offices (heard by myself, other nurses, doctors, medical assistants, etc.) that if they took their car to the shop, it would act THIS way, and be repaired after THIS amount of time, etc. Humans are not machines, no one person heals the same as another, everyone reacts differently. Not your fault, really, just a pet peeve of mine. When human bodies are placed in context with mechanical objects, it grinds away on my nerves.

    And you know this to be the case at all Planned Parenthood or just the single independent region that you worked at? I know they charge different prices for surgical vs. medical and based on the age of the human.

    Yes, that’s a tenet set down by PPFA. The cite I referred you to earlier was for Texas, I worked in the San Francisco Bay Area, and that sliding fee schedule according to income applies to every PP across the country. Incidentally, it isn’t “based on the age of the human,” because the fetus has no age until it is actually born (just a gestation). I don’t appreciate your insistence on ascribing emotional designation in order to attempt to sway. You can call it a person/human/baby, it still doesn’t make it one.

    No worries, I feel I have good comprehension of your points as I am able to address each one.
    But you’re not absorbing them. That is, it seems you’re not absorbing them, as I have to repeat information.

    I have found our conversation very interesting and will be sharing it with a few of my friends so that they can glean wisdom from our exchange and understand two perspectives on this issue.

    For that, I really am glad. Do hit that link in my original post to the article “No Moral Abortion but Mine.” I think you’d be interested to find that there are MANY pro-life women who take advantage of PP’s AB services. They’re given the same consideration and care as any other patient. When it comes to Jesus’ teachings about judgment, I’ll leave it as an open question as to which group you feel espouses that.

  16. “No, it was god saying (through his prophet) what was going to happen in the coming battle. ”
    And knowing what was going to happen means that is what he wanted? Hard to infer that.

    “1. Childbirth is a life threatening procedure.”
    And one can avoid that my not getting pregnant. It is a risk but a small one.

    “The United States has one of the highest mortality rate for women in labor ”
    Because they are all demanding C sections.

    “Is it fair to ask a woman to give her life because you don’t like the idea of abortion? ”
    It isn’t that I don’t like the idea of abortion. I think the intentional ending of a unique, living, human life violates universal human rights.

    Is it fair for the unborn human to give up his/her life because the woman doesn’t want the hassle?

    “You have made your choice and it is an admirable one. You cannot force everyone else to choose YOUR option.”
    So the same logic could have been applied to early America. I don’t choose to own slaves but I cannot force that everyone else to choose my opinion. If you are against slavery then don’t have a slave. Same logic?

    “You yourself have demonstrated that a woman’s life is inferior to the potential life she’s carrying. ”
    First it is not a potential life. It is actually human. Actually unique. And actually a life. I do no believe a woman’s life is inferior. I support the choice of abortion for the woman when the woman’s life would be given up to birth a child. I do put above a human life over human convenience. I do that for men, women, young, old.

    “You can call it a person/human/baby, it still doesn’t make it one. ”
    Note: I did not use person or baby.

    Person is an abstract concept that is not scientifically defined. I do not use that term.

    As for baby, it has many definitions. It is not incorrect to use it for a pre-born child. Go look at a dictionary. That said, because of its lack of precision, I generally don’t use the term as seen in this conversation.

    Human I do use because we scientifically know what a human is. Yes, we were once a…
    Human embryo, Human fetus, Human Infant, Human Child, Human Adult, etc.

    “I don’t appreciate your insistence on ascribing emotional designation in order to attempt to sway. ”
    I am not intending to use underhanded tactics.

    “Yes, that’s a tenet set down by PPFA. ”
    How can I verify this as it runs counter to some of my personal experiences?

    “I think you’d be interested to find that there are MANY pro-life women who take advantage of PP’s AB services.”
    It would be interesting to see a statistical study or survey of PP patients. That said, I only know of one pro-life person who has ever had an abortion after becoming pro-life. I do know many people that had abortions before they realized the humanity of the unborn and have since changed but that doesn’t count. I would suspect that most people would keep it private so it would be hard for me to know but that said, the top 15 strong pro-life people I know are all consistently pro-life…like my parents who adopted a child and never had an abortion.

  17. Your evidence is all anecdotal. “The people I know…” “The experience I’ve had…” “My parents…” (the last one, by the way, is an appeal to emotion, and the slavery one works both ways. Even more so the other way, if you think about it). I’ve shown you websites which state in no uncertain terms that services are based on a sliding scale depending on the woman’s income. I’ve shown you websites which show our maternal and infant mortality rates (and while C sections are a factor, they are not the only reason). All of my statements are based on medical fact. Yours are based on personal preference.

    As for your slavery argument: A slave was a living human being. An embryo/fetus is not even a functioning human being. There are no higher brain functions (and yes, despite what you think, science CAN define a “person,” and has. That’s why it was very clear that Terri Schaivo wasn’t one), there are no emotions, there is no cognition or ability to sustain itself without being totally dependent on the mother’s body. In short….the WOMAN is the slave to the fetus. A living incubator. She is a real person whose life is established. She has rights. You do not have the right to take it away.

    I do find it interesting that of all medical procedures performed…this is one of only two that requires a law to be a legal right.

    Really, it comes down to this: If you do not want to have an abortion….don’t! No one is forcing you to. If you do not want your wife to have one…marry a woman who won’t. But don’t presume you have the right to inflict your religious beliefs on my or any other woman’s body. The first amendment has been in place since the inception of this country, and I am not bound by your religious laws.

  18. “Your evidence is all anecdotal. ”
    If you have a problem with my evidence, then challenge it with your evidence. I didn’t contend with your data on “maternal and infant mortality rates “…I never have.

    I did not content that PP did not use a sliding scale in some places. I don’t disagree that the clinic in Texas that you linked to does. Just because once clinic does something doesn’t make a national policy. Do you have any evidence that it is a national policy? I am not saying it isn’t, I am just saying that I have not seen it in some places.

    “A slave was a living human being.”
    Scientifically so is a human fetus. Are you telling me that it is dead? Are you telling met that it isn’t human? Are you kidding me? Who is using science?

    “An embryo/fetus is not even a functioning human being. ”
    How do you define a functioning human being? I know people who got in car accidents that weren’t very functioning…should they not have human life rights? Are you discriminating based on a human’s function?

    “She has rights. You do not have the right to take it away.”
    She does have rights but ones rights stop when they infringe on the rights of others. A woman’s right to not have a child is less than the right of another human to live. If that was not the case, a woman could kill her born infant.

    “In short….the WOMAN is the slave to the fetus. ”
    So because the woman is the slave, she can kill her master? Really?

    “I do find it interesting that of all medical procedures performed…this is one of only two that requires a law to be a legal right.”
    What is the other one? Assisted suicide? It is also interesting that it is a procedure that in many places can be performed without a doctor or on a child without the knowledge of a parent.

    “But don’t presume you have the right to inflict your religious beliefs on my or any other woman’s body. ”
    What are you talking about? Why are you bringing religion into this?

    Also, why do you have a hard time answer my questions such as:
    – Is it fair for the unborn human to give up his/her life because the woman doesn’t want the hassle?
    – How can I verify this as it runs counter to some of my personal experiences? (I’m asking an honest question…maybe you could try to help)

    Any why do you bring up points “You can call it a person/human/baby, it still doesn’t make it one.” and then fail to respond to my response. Are you conceding the point and admitting your line of thinking was wrong?

  19. leftcoastlibrul

    Scientifically so is a human fetus. Are you telling me that it is dead? Are you telling met that it isn’t human? Are you kidding me? Who is using science?

    Nope, I’m telling you that a fetus is not an autonomous human being. That a fetus is not a viable human being, and is totally dependent on the body of the mother. As such, not yet a human being. Not yet a person. Once that fetus is viable, that’s a different story. As such, a fetus has no rights. It would be like affording rights to a basal ganglion cyst.

    She does have rights but ones rights stop when they infringe on the rights of others. A woman’s right to not have a child is less than the right of another human to live. If that was not the case, a woman could kill her born infant.

    Nope. Again, total disregard for science. A “born infant” is a viable person. There are a couple scientific positions on viability. One is the point at which a fetus develops higher brain function and is able to sustain its own life outside the womb (this includes lung and cardiac functionality). The other is that a fetus is not viable until it is born, because there is no guarantee (back to the whole high infant mortality rate) that it will survive. I subscribe to the first definition. Higher brain function and physical viability defines “human person.” The law, incidentally, agrees with me. Which answers your next question of what defines a functioning human being. Someone already born that has higher brain function and is able to survive without physical dependence on another human being to do its breathing and eating for it.

    So because the woman is the slave, she can kill her master? Really?

    Straw man. This is a complete misrepresentation of my statement and you know it. You introduced slavery as an analogy, I simply reversed it.

    What is the other one? Assisted suicide?

    Indeed. I think it’s highly unethical to force someone suffering from a terminal disease to die slowly and painfully while stripping them of their dignity, but that’s just me.

    It is also interesting that it is a procedure that in many places can be performed without a doctor

    As can many other medical procedures. I take it you lobby just as hard against anesthesia being administered by nurse anesthetists?

    or on a child without the knowledge of a parent.

    Soooo…you think a “child” of 17 shouldn’t have an abortion without the doctor being forced to inform the parents, but you think the same child is adult enough to give birth to and raise a baby? Interesting. I would note that, as evinced by your many posts, many parents would not allow their “child” to obtain abortion services. As such, it was put to a vote in my home state of California three times, and three times voters agreed that HIPAA and the Privacy Act covers minors as well as adults.

    In any event, if the pro life people you know are as pro-life as you’ve represented them, it really shouldn’t be a problem, right? Because no pro life child of a pro life family would obtain an abortion, and certainly not without discussing it with her family. Right?
    So all we’re talking about is the children of pro-choice parents who likely wouldn’t have an issue with it in any case, and thus… no conflict.

    What are you talking about? Why are you bringing religion into this?

    Ummm….it’s what my original entry was all about. The one you originally replied to. A deranged young man decided that he was going to impose his religious beliefs on women. Remember?

    Also, why do you have a hard time answer my questions such as:
    – Is it fair for the unborn human to give up his/her life because the woman doesn’t want the hassle?

    I don’t. I just answered the questions I felt were more relevant to our discussion. Probably for the same reasons you ignored points I made that I felt were more relevant than some that you chose to answer.

    Incidentally, as a mother, I find your mischaracterization of motherhood extremely insulting. Motherhood is far more serious than a “hassle.” It’s a commitment, and a very big one. If you are not very sure you are ready to become a parent, you shouldn’t. Again, a fetus isn’t a human til it’s viable, and your assertion that it is is based more on opinion than fact.

    How can I verify this as it runs counter to some of my personal experiences? (I’m asking an honest question…maybe you could try to help)

    PPFA does not list the sliding scale based on income, but my search of that site did yield websites for 485 Planned Parenthood clinics in what appears to be most states (likely yours included). Hopefully that will help you verify the information I gave you earlier.

    Any why do you bring up points “You can call it a person/human/baby, it still doesn’t make it one.” and then fail to respond to my response. Are you conceding the point and admitting your line of thinking was wrong?
    No, I’m simply recognizing that if you continue to believe as you believe in the face of scientific fact to the contrary, my responding yet again isn’t going to change your mind, either.

    The site No Moral Abortion But Mine is likely the only one you’ll find in terms of pro-life activists having abortions. PP does not ask whether a woman is pro-choice or not when they are obtaining services. We simply do not collect that data. We take a non aggressive, non judgmental approach to our patients. Often they are scared and worried. Their political affiliation is not nearly as important as making sure they are healthy and that the choice they make is an informed one.

  20. “Nope, I’m telling you that a fetus is not an autonomous human being. That a fetus is not a viable human being, and is totally dependent on the body of the mother. As such, not yet a human being. Not yet a person. Once that fetus is viable, that’s a different story. As such, a fetus has no rights. It would be like affording rights to a basal ganglion cyst.”

    So I take it you oppose all abortion after viability?

    At what age does viability occur?

    Considering that the point of viability is changing as medical technology advances, isn’t it a little off that we base our humanity on technology? A human that is one age in 1970 is considered not a viable human but another human of the exact same age is considered viable in 2009?

    “That a fetus is not a viable human being, and is totally dependent on the body of the mother.”
    A newborn can’t live on its own either? Is it not human?

    “Straw man. This is a complete misrepresentation of my statement and you know it. You introduced slavery as an analogy, I simply reversed it.”
    So the woman being a slave has nothing to do with whether she can kill the human fetus?

    “I subscribe to the first definition. Higher brain function and physical viability defines “human person.”’
    So if one has impaired brain power, are they less of a human? What level of brain function makes one human? If ones drop below that level of brain function are they no longer human? If one is hurt mortally, say a soldier on a battlefield, does he become non-human when it becomes a certainly that he will die? Does the inability of one to sustain their own life make that person non-human?

    “I take it you lobby just as hard against anesthesia being administered by nurse anesthetists?”
    I said, interesting. I said nothing about my lobbying against it. It is something I should research more before I decide if only doctors are qualified enough to perform abortions.

    “Soooo…you think a “child” of 17 shouldn’t have an abortion without the doctor being forced to inform the parents, but you think the same child is adult enough to give birth to and raise a baby?”
    I didn’t say the 17 year old was able to raise a baby. Often they aren’t able to do it very well. Parental involvement is very important to a child’s success, especially in crisis situations. The outcomes of children with two parents and involved parents is far superior to other situations. That said, it is reasonable that more girls will get better support if parental involvement occurs. 30 states have parental involvement laws so I think quite a few people agree with me.

    “In any event, if the pro life people you know are as pro-life as you’ve represented them, it really shouldn’t be a problem, right? Because no pro life child of a pro life family would obtain an abortion, and certainly not without discussing it with her family. Right?”
    I don’t get your point. I don’t make public policy off of just looking at myself. I look at the aggregate effect on society so your assumed perspective about pro-life children is not a part of my thought process on legislation like this. I don’t know where you got that.

    “Ummm….it’s what my original entry was all about. ”
    Yeah but my recent posts has nothing to do about it. You were bringing it up again. I just don’t know why you insist that religion be so central to this discussion.

    “”Incidentally, as a mother, I find your mischaracterization of motherhood extremely insulting. Motherhood is far more serious than a “hassle.”It’s a commitment, and a very big one. ”
    You misunderstand me. Your statement that it is a big commitment is consistent with my views.

    “If you are not very sure you are ready to become a parent, you shouldn’t”
    I agree. That is why I don’t think it is best for minors to be putting themselves in situations where they can become pregnant.

    “Again, a fetus isn’t a human til it’s viable, and your assertion that it is is based more on opinion than fact.””
    It is your opinion that my position is just opinion. If more facts is what you would like, consider this:

    – The fetus has 100% unique DNA, finger prints, etc. I would love to see your evidence to the contrary.
    – The fetus can have a different sex than the mother. If the fetus is just part of the mother then it would be a true statement that some pregnant women have a penis. Would you agree with the statement that some pregnant women have a penis?
    – It is growing and biologically functioning.
    – The fetus’s cell are…get this…100% human in scientific testing. Yes, scientific testing. Do you have tests with other results? I would like to see them.

    “No, I’m simply recognizing that if you continue to believe as you believe in the face of scientific fact to the contrary, my responding yet again isn’t going to change your mind, either.”
    The fact that you deny that the fetus is human is laughable. If it isn’t human is it monkey? Is it tree? What do you think it really is? Just a fetus? A money fetus at a certain level meets your definition of viability…is it human then?

  21. leftcoastlibrul

    Tch. See? You’ve totally proven my point. I’ve given facts and citations; you have yet to produce even one. You seem to rely on anecdotal data and feelings. Which are very well in their place, I suppose, but it doesn’t make for a very informed viewpoint on any subject.

    Yes, just to answer your most pressing question, I oppose abortion after viability. As do most people, from what I can tell. If the mother’s life is threatened by a viable fetus, it should be delivered early. No Planned Parenthood will perform an abortion after 21 weeks which is the point at which higher brain function begins. Yes, I’m sure you’ve heard they do late term abortions, because of course, you can’t have propaganda about what monsters they are unless you have those stories. They’re not true.

    Incidentally, you misinterpreted what I meant by “live without support from the mother’s body,” so let’s clear that up. A “viable” infant is one whose body is fully developed (including brain function) and able to process without the mother’s body acting as an intermediary. It really disappoints me that you reduce yourself to such petty arguments. You act like they’re points I’ve never considred. I mean, c’mon. I worked for PP for over a year. I’ve been a nurse for nearly 20 years, and a PP supporter for almost 30 years. Do you honestly think I haven’t heard or responded to them before?

    That is why I don’t think it is best for minors to be putting themselves in situations where they can become pregnant.

    Thank you, I needed the laugh. Teenagers are hormones with feet. You can say “Don’t do it” til you’re blue in the face and actually believe that “good” kids from “good” families won’t, but the fact of the matter is abstinence only programs don’t work. It made national news. Sadly, people who only teach their kids “don’t do it” don’t realize that they’re actually harming their children. Again, working in the education department of PP, I heard some really dangerous theories put forth by teenagers who had only had abstinence only education. In fact, those teens who take virginity pledges are more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior like anal sex.

    As to the fetus’ humanity….dude, it isn’t a human til it’s capable of breathing, eating and thinking on its own. And no. A living person who then suffers brain damage is not and will never be an apt comparison, because that person HAS ALREADY BEEN ALIVE. A fetus has not. The only reason it’s alive is because the host body is keeping it alive. The reason it’s growing and biologically functional is because the mother’s body is feeding & sheltering it and breathing and processing oxygen for it. No comparison of any other living thing that has been born is an apt one. None. Please stop with the analogies, because none of them apply.

    The fact that you think you actually applied biological science correctly is, frankly, not laughable but sad…I feel bad for you. No matter what I say or do at this point, you are far more invested in being right than you are in understanding.

  22. “I’ve given facts and citations; you have yet to produce even one. ”
    Just saying that you’ve given facts and I haven’t doesn’t prove anything. That is your opinion. If you think anything that I say is factually incorrect then rip it up. Shred it to bits. That is the real proof. Don’t say your right…just show it. Make me look stupid if I am so laughable. I also live in California…would you have any interest in doing a live debate on some of these topics for YouTube?

    “I oppose abortion after viability”
    Why is that? Does it become human at the point of viability?

    “Yes, I’m sure you’ve heard they do late term abortions, because of course, you can’t have propaganda about what monsters they are unless you have those stories.”
    Actually I have never heard that. Generally I have found that Planned Parenthood will refer to other clinics of later-term operations.

    “A “viable” infant is one whose body is fully developed (including brain function) and able to process without the mother’s body acting as an intermediary.”
    So if a infant’s life could be sustained by medical devices (without a mother’s body) at let’s say 15 weeks, would you oppose abortion then?

    “It really disappoints me that you reduce yourself to such petty arguments. ”
    You say petty arguments but yet you don’t refer to a single petty argument of mine. How am I supposed to respond to statements of your that are just castles in the sky?

    “Teenagers are hormones with feet. You can say “Don’t do it” til you’re blue in the face and actually believe that “good” kids from “good” families won’t, but the fact of the matter is abstinence only programs don’t work.’
    Did I ever say what method of education I supported? You are making assumptions. I support a comprehensive, age-appropriate, factual, medically accurate, abstinence preferred approach.

    There are so many definitions about what abstinence only means. Would you consider what I support abstinence only?

    “In fact, those teens who take virginity pledges are more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior like anal sex.”
    Well that is dumb. There is nothing wrong with a virginity pledge as long as it is not the only education. That would be ridiculous. Would a promiscuity pledge be a good thing?

    “Previous studies have found that teenagers who make pledges contract STDs at nearly the same rate as those who don’t”
    So it isn’t like it is a bad thing…it just may not be effective. I would agree…signing a piece of paper doesn’t mean much. Having a peer network that discourages and is educated about dangerous sexual activity is best.

    “dude, it isn’t a human til it’s capable of breathing, eating and thinking on its own”
    You have given me so many definitions of what a human is that I wonder if you have a solid concept. Is is viability? It is thinking? Is it the ability to feel pain? Is it breathing? Is it all of these at the same time? Can you state in scientific terms how to determine if a said entity is human?

    “The only reason it’s alive is because the host body is keeping it alive.’
    So you admit that they are different bodies? Are they the same entity or different?

    “A living person who then suffers brain damage is not and will never be an apt comparison, because that person HAS ALREADY BEEN ALIVE.”
    Ah, so history is a factor in humanity? Once a human always a human? Is that what you agree with?

    Since you are an educator and I am a fairly young person, can you help me out with my questions like

    “The fetus’s cell are…get this…100% human in scientific testing. Yes, scientific testing. Do you have tests with other results? ”

    I am willing to learn. I have an open mind. This conversation so far though has taught me a lot, primary that there are not significant intellectual arguments against my views.

  23. leftcoastlibrul

    Just saying that you’ve given facts and I haven’t doesn’t prove anything. That is your opinion.

    Noooo, the citations prove it for me. That’s what makes it fact. Did you read them?

    Why is that? Does it become human at the point of viability?

    It (clinically) becomes a person at that point.

    Actually I have never heard that. Generally I have found that Planned Parenthood will refer to other clinics of later-term operations.

    Lie. Later term abortions are illegal and are not performed. Planned Parenthood will not refer out to ANY abortion provider for late term abortion services.

    So if a infant’s life could be sustained by medical devices (without a mother’s body) at let’s say 15 weeks, would you oppose abortion then?

    NO. Sustaining it on medical devices is still sustenance by other means. SELF sufficient. Able to breathe, eat, think on its own.

    Did I ever say what method of education I supported?

    Yes. Go back and read your own post.

    You have given me so many definitions of what a human is that I wonder if you have a solid concept. Is is viability? It is thinking? Is it the ability to feel pain? Is it breathing? Is it all of these at the same time? Can you state in scientific terms how to determine if a said entity is human?

    That’s what “viable” means. It isn’t my fault you asked me to define it four times. All you did by doing so was entrench the concept that you’re quite ignorant regarding the term “viability.” If you got it the first time, why did you ask me to define it so frequently? You wanted to move the goal posts and get me to admit a fetus is human. I don’t care if it’s a small furry creature from alpha centauri. If it isn’t viable, it’s still the woman’s choice.

    Since you are an educator and I am a fairly young person, can you help me out with my questions like

    “The fetus’s cell are…get this…100% human in scientific testing. Yes, scientific testing. Do you have tests with other results? ”

    Nope. On the other hand…I have tests that show cancer cells are 100% human, too. Should I ignore patients who come in for treatment? After all, it has its own DNA, grows, responds to external stimuli….if you’re going to take something to its most absurd point, let’s get really absurd. Don’t kill HIV! It’s HUMAN!

    I am willing to learn. I have an open mind. This conversation so far though has taught me a lot, primary that there are not significant intellectual arguments against my views.

    *shrug* Like I said. Answering the fact that chastity pledges lead to riskier behavior with “well what would be better, a promiscuity pledge?” is more or less case in point that you’re not being open minded; it’s intentionally obtuse. The citation I gave is very much an intellectual argument which proves your view is wrong, and instead of agreeing that yes, education is probably better than teaching abstinence only, you post that. Am out, dude, you’re convinced you’re right and that appears to be really what matters to you.

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